Episode Transcript<\/h2>\n
This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors. Ki Sung:<\/strong> He\u2019s also the bestselling author of several other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School.<\/p>\n Ki Sung: <\/strong>Welcome, Dr. Greene.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Thank you for inviting me to do this.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> Thank you so much for being here. Let\u2019s talk first about what you describe as concerning behavior, the stuff that gets kids sent to the principal\u2019s office.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> You say concerning behavior is how kids communicate that they\u2019re having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. Can you tell us more?<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> I do say that all the time, and I wish everybody knew that. We\u2019ve, we\u2019ve all become accustomed to the cliche \u201cAll behavior is communication.\u201d Somehow, it doesn\u2019t translate for a lot of people that concerning behavior communicates that a kid is frustrated or distressed.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Concerning behavior is a frustration or distress response, and almost always, what the student is frustrated or distressed about is an expectation that they\u2019re having difficulty meeting. Um, if all we pay attention to is the behavior, then we\u2019re gonna be kinda narrow in what we can do, or\u2026 \u2019cause when you\u2019re focused on behavior, all you can really do is try to modify it, and that\u2019s usually accomplished through some mix of rewards and punishments.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> But rewards and punishments, what a lot of people refer to as consequences, aren\u2019t problem-solving strategies. So we have a lot of students who have experienced a lot of consequences and who are still doing poorly because the problems that are causing the behaviors that we\u2019ve been busy consequencing often haven\u2019t even been identified, let alone solved.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> Um, it\u2019s kinda wild to hear you say that because I hear a lot of focus on the behavior. So what are you proposing we do?<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> I am proposing that we de-emphasize our focus on behavior, and by the way, our focus on behavior Is all around us. We are, um\u2026 When we have a kid who\u2019s struggling and communicating that they\u2019re struggling through their behavior, we do behavior checklists, we do behavior observations, we do a functional behavior assessment all so that we can come up with a behavior plan.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> When a student is struggling in a classroom and communicate that through their concerning behavior, they get a discipline referral, and what the, the information that is mostly passed along to the people who are on the receiving end of those discipline referrals is the kid\u2019s concerning behavior. And what they often do about it is give the kid consequences for their concerning behavior.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> We need to instead, um, focus on the problems that are causing that behavior. I call them unsolved problems. The synonym for unsolved problem is unmet expectation. This includes things like stuff classroom teachers deal with every day.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Um, difficulty coming back into the classroom after recess, difficulty sitting next to Susie during circle time, difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math, difficulty agreeing with Billy on the rules of the four square game at recess, difficulty coming to school, difficulty coming to school on time.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> I could go on forever. Those are not typically the things people are talking about when they\u2019re talking about a kid who\u2019s struggling. They\u2019re often talking about the kid\u2019s concerning behavior and what they\u2019re doing to try to modify it, and maybe even the diagnosis that captures those behaviors. We would be so much better off if we have an instrument that helps us identify their unsolved problems, and we do in the collaborative and proactive solutions model.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> And if we were engaging students in the process of solving those problems, meaning collaboratively, and since we\u2019re now out in front of those problems, having now finally identified them, the problem should also be proactive.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> I think there\u2019s something huge in what you\u2019re talking about solutions-wise in the word collaborative.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> It sounds like you\u2019re talking about including the student as well in how to move forward.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> That is so what I\u2019m talking about. But I think a lot of adults, um, both in education, in education but also everywhere else, think it\u2019s their job to divine what\u2019s getting in the kid\u2019s way and to divine what the solutions should be.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> This is not that. Kids can be relied upon to help us understand what\u2019s making it hard for them to meet a particular expectation. I\u2019m often asked the question, \u201cWhat makes you think the kid knows?\u201d And my answer is, \u201ci35 years of asking.\u201d Kids can also be relied upon to, um, come up with solutions t- about what\u2019s getting in the way of them meeting certain expectations.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> So this model is moving us away from being completely adult-driven. The adult is the facilitator of a process in which kid and adult are working toward solutions together. That is very different from what typically goes on now.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> One thing I had to kind of work a little extra on to better understand is your concepts of collaborative and proactive solutions, because I realize a lot of why we continue to do what we\u2019re doing, right, looking for behaviors, uh, trying to work in a behavior-focused model, I think a lot of why we operate that way is, is rooted in our communication, you know, how we communicate with young people, which is not necessarily open-ended, you know, which is thinking more about why have you not done this thing that I asked you to do already with the consequences in mind.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> Um, so can you give us some examples of how people can communicate to get to that state of collaboration versus maybe how we typically communicate now?<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Well, very interesting question. You know, solving a problem collaboratively starts with identifying the problem that you want to solve with the kid, and although that sounds like sort of a given, it\u2019s not.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Mostly because we\u2019re so focused on behavior that we often haven\u2019t even identified the expectations a student is having difficulty reliably meeting. So we\u2019ve gotta start with that, and the instrument that I was talking about is called the Assessment of Skills and Unsolved Problems, and it helps us memorialize every single expectation a particular student is having difficulty reliably meeting.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> And we are now, for having done that, out in front of it, which means we don\u2019t have to wait for the frustration response to occur before we intervene. So much of intervention, so much of what we\u2019re training educators to do, so much of what we\u2019re teaching kids is what to do once a kid is already becoming frustrated, and that\u2019s late.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> That\u2019s crisis management. That\u2019s not out in front of it. That\u2019s waiting for the behavior to occur. Boy, does the game change when we proactively identify unsolved problems- That positions us to solve them proactively. Um, I\u2019m always telling educators, being late is not a given. With some intentionality, with some commitment, with some imagination, we could be early instead of late.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> So identifying unsolved problems is where the whole thing begins. It then continues with prioritizing the unsolved problems you\u2019ve identified, because you\u2019re not gonna be able to solve everything at once. Often we encourage educators to prioritize unsolved problems that are causing safety issues, because safety is a big deal in schools.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> And then it\u2019s time to start solving a problem collaboratively and proactively with a student. Um, what might that sound like? \u201cI\u2019ve noticed you\u2019ve been having difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. What\u2019s up?\u201d The caregiver just got the conversation going. The caregiver is now facilitating a problem-solving process.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> The caregiver is not thinking about consequences, because the caregiver should know that consequences don\u2019t solve any problems. Now we\u2019re looking to the kid to help us understand what\u2019s making it hard. Now, sometimes kids say something that feel like a showstopper, like, \u201cI hate it.\u201d But one of the other things the collaborative and proactive solutions model provides is how to drill for more information, how to probe, and the drilling strategy, there are eight of them that I would use in that circumstances, is simple reflective listening.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> \u201cYou hate it. Tell me more about that.\u201d \u201cIt\u2019s stupid.\u201d Sounds like another showstopper, but it\u2019s not. \u201cIt\u2019s stupid.\u201d Um, \u201cI\u2019m sorry, I\u2019m still not exactly sure what you mean. What do you mean when you say it\u2019s stupid?\u201d \u201cIt\u2019s stupid how you make me do math I don\u2019t know how to do.\u201d Are we starting to get some traction here?<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> We are. Do we need to continue probing? We do, because we don\u2019t yet know what\u2019s making it hard for the kid to complete the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. But we do have a kid who\u2019s now talking, and that is a wonderful thing. Um, eventually, and I\u2019m thinking of a particular kid here, we learned that, uh, when the double-digit division problems in math were presented in words, as in word problems, they got completely stumped.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> But when they could do it through, um, just doing out a division problem, they could do it just fine. Good. Now we know. That\u2019s the first step of solving a problem collaboratively, curiosity, finding out what\u2019s been getting in the kid\u2019s way. The second step is the adult\u2019s step. It\u2019s their turn to say why they, um, think it\u2019s important that the expectation Be met.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> And then in the third step, adult and kid are collaborating on a solution that\u2019s going to address the concerns of both parties. Solved problems don\u2019t cause frustration responses, only unsolved problems do. So when educators first hear about this process, and all I\u2019ve given you is the basic outlines, the first thing they think about, and I completely understand why, is time.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> They ask, \u201cWhen does he think we\u2019re going to do this?\u201d But I could make a very persuasive argument for the fact that the reason we have no time is because we haven\u2019t been doing this. We\u2019ve been chasing after behavior day after day, same kids. It saves a lot of time to finally identify and solve the problems we\u2019ve been chasing after all this time.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> Who was it that said, uh, \u201cThe definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results\u201d?<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> I don\u2019t remember who it was, but they had a good point.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> All right. Um, can I ask, in that instance with the math problem, what is the unproductive way to respond that you may have seen or heard about in classrooms?<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Oh, thinking that the student\u2019s failure to do the math is due to poor motivation, and then thinking that what this student really needs is more motivation. And that could go in a few different directions. It could sound like this: \u201cUh, Billy, if you do not get that math done before recess, you are not going out for recess.\u201d<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Could be in the form of reward, \u201cBilly, if you get that math done, you get XYZ reward.\u201d Very common. Um, we still have no idea what\u2019s making it hard for Billy to do the math. We\u2019ve lost sight of the fact that we are not the first people who\u2019ve tried to incentivize Billy to do things that are hard for him. Um, we\u2019ve also lost sight of the fact that this is not the first time Billy\u2019s had difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> It\u2019s the 197th, which makes this an old unsolved problem. Um, if we punish Billy for something, for a problem that he is currently unable to overcome on his own, we heighten the likelihood that Billy will exhibit a frustration response. If we dangle a reward in front of Billy, and Billy is unable to achieve that award because Billy is not yet over, uh, uh, able to overcome that problem- We still run the risk of a frustration response.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> I\u2019ve seen just as many frustration responses when a kid didn\u2019t get an anticipated reward as I have in response to punishment. But the whole thing here is we still don\u2019t have the slightest idea what\u2019s making it hard for Billy to do the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. And until we do, Billy\u2019s still gonna struggle with that unsolved problem.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> It\u2019s really fascinating to hear you describe the latter because that is far more common experience from my point of view than anyone having sat down and spent time identifying an unsolved problem. I like that.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Even when people sit down with the kid and talk to the kid, what they\u2019re often talking with the kid about is their concerning behavior.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Um, so you ran out of Mrs. Johnson\u2019s classroom. Why\u2019d you do that? And the answer that we most frequently get when people try to talk with kids about their frustration responses is, \u201cI don\u2019t know,\u201d or the most primitive of defense mechanisms, \u201cNo, I didn\u2019t.\u201d Those conversations, generally speaking, go nowhere.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Conversations we have about helping kids understand what\u2019s making it hard for them to meet an expectation, actually they\u2019re the ones who are helping us understand, and working toward a solution that finally gets the problem solved so the frustration responses subside, that\u2019s a beautiful thing.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> So as you said, \u201cI don\u2019t know,\u201d or, you know, other things kids say like, \u201cI don\u2019t care,\u201d I imagine adults also have a frustration response.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> Does this help get at the root of how adults respond as well?<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Well, a lot of maladaptive adult frustration responses occur in the heat of the moment as well. Our goal is to get out of the heat of the moment. The heat of the moment, I can\u2019t say this enough times, isn\u2019t a given. I know the students are difficult.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> I get it. I know that there\u2019s too many of them in a classroom. I get that too. But this would all be a whole lot easier, and it would be much better practice for both educators and kids if we were focused on the right thing. Now, that\u2019s the heat of the moment part of educator frustration these days.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> There\u2019s a lot of reasons that educators should be frustrated these days. Um, I think we\u2019ve made it a lot harder to be an educator over the last two to three decades, and yes, high-stakes testing, I\u2019m staring at you, but that is not the only thing that has made it harder to be an educator. I\u2019ve had many educators say to me, \u201cThey\u2019ve taken all the humanity out of my job.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> They\u2019ve turned me into a test prep robot.\u201d Um, zero tolerance policies, um, made it more difficult for me to find out what\u2019s really going on with a kid because zero tolerance policies just tightened the vice grip and gave us an algorithm for applying consequences to certain behaviors. Um, we\u2019ve made a lot of things harder on educators.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Let there be no doubt they aren\u2019t paid anywhere nearly enough. Um, they don\u2019t have time. So there\u2019s a baseline level of frustration for a lot of educators these days. They often don\u2019t feel safe in their classrooms. Um, I find that when we implement this model, it\u2019s not just the frustration of kids that subside, it\u2019s the frustration of educators as well.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Although I will say this: there\u2019s nothing about this model that will help educators get paid what they deserve.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> Yeah, that is the, a huge goal for so many people in order to better serve students.<\/p>\n Ki Sung: <\/strong>we\u2019re going to take a short break. We\u2019ll be back with our guest Ross Greene, right after this.<\/p>\n Ki Sung: <\/strong>So, you know, I\u2019ve heard a lot of educators say, \u201cMeet them where they\u2019re at,\u201d or, you know, a version of this is, \u201cTeach the kid you have.\u201d Um, but that\u2019s not happening at a wide scale. Um, is it really hard to implement? Is it, uh, like what is it about schools that make it challenging to get to that point?<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> You know, one of the other big focal points of the book is, um, the concept of developmental variability, which I don\u2019t hear people talking about enough, especially in schools, but anywhere really. Um, developmental variability basically says what\u2019s walking in the door is a bunch of individual differences.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Developmental variability is just a fanciv- fancy way of saying every kid is different, and let there be no doubt that is what\u2019s walking in every classroom. We\u2019ve done kids and educators a tremendous disservice by saying, \u201cEven with all that developmental variability, you gotta get every kid over the same line by the end of the school year.\u201d<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> How ludicrous, and educators told us that was ludicrous 30 years ago, and it\u2019s just as ludicrous now. One of the points I make in the book is that every kid should be their own reference point. Teachers should feel free to have every kid be their own reference point for progress. That tells you that there is no line that everybody has to get over.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> There\u2019s no line. There\u2019s just making sure that every student makes as much progress relative to where they started at the beginning in every school year, and we need to free teachers up to be able to do that. Um, that\u2019s what differentiated instruction is about. That\u2019s what personalized learning is about.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Unfortunately, those things frequently don\u2019t embed themselves into our practice. Every kid is their own reference point. The goal of good teaching is defined as meeting every kid where they\u2019re at. Um, we need to free teachers up to be able to do that.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> You know, one thing that I thought was really interesting about your book is, I, I think this is interesting because teachers are asked to do so much, right?<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> They are, in many cases, social workers. Sometimes they\u2019re stand-ins for parents. They\u2019re just doing more and more all the time, and what you write is that you don\u2019t want teachers to be diagnosing, to look at behavior and diagnose behavior. Um, can you tell me why that is? And, and I ask because there is so much emphasis on the behavior side of interacting with students.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> So why, why do you want teachers to, you know, not act in that way?<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Well, because diagnoses don\u2019t really tell you very much. Um, not very much that you don\u2019t already know. Diagnoses are sometimes the gateway for a kid to get services. Diagnosis can sometimes be the gateway for a kid to get funding for those services.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> I\u2019m a mental health professional, and I don\u2019t find that diagnoses give me much useful information about a kid. Um, what gives me the useful information? What skills this kid is struggling with and what expectations this kid is having difficulty reliably meeting, and I get that information from the assessment of skills and unsolved problems.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> Here\u2019s a, um, I was speaking at a, uh, autism conference in Denmark pre-COVID, and a mother in my audience raised her hand very tentatively and said, \u201cYeah, but I found my daughter\u2019s autism diagnosis to be very useful.\u201d I said, \u201cThat\u2019s good.\u201d Then she thought about it for a second, and she said, \u201cBut I think what you\u2019re saying-\u201d \u201cIs that my daughter\u2019s autism diagnosis really doesn\u2019t tell me anything about her specific skills or the specific expectations she\u2019s having difficulty meeting.\u201d<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> I said, \u201cRight.\u201d She thought about it a little bit more, and then she said, \u201cAnd I think what you\u2019re saying is that once I identify my daughter\u2019s skills and unsolved problems, I\u2019m going to find that I have information that is far more useful than her psychiatric diagnosis.\u201d I said, \u201cProbably.\u201d Um, focusing on diagnoses focuses on, makes us focus on behavior, because if we look at the diagnostic criteria for the vast majority of childhood psychiatric disorders, what we\u2019re going to find is a long list of behaviors, frustration responses, distress responses.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> So long as we\u2019re focused on the behavior, we\u2019re gonna be late every time, because behavior occurs after a kid is already having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. We\u2019ve been waiting for behavior to occur. We need to start anticipating, identifying, and solving problems instead.<\/p>\n \u00a0<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> Dr. Ross Greene, thank you so much.<\/p>\n Ross Greene:<\/strong> My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me to do this.<\/p>\n Ki Sung:<\/strong> Dr. Ross Greene is the author of the recently published book, The Kids Who Aren\u2019t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools. He\u2019s also the author of other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School, and is the founding director of Lives in the Balance.<\/p>\n The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis.\u00a0 Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.<\/p>\n MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.<\/p>\n Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.<\/p>\n Thanks for listening to MindShift.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n
<\/span><\/i>
Ki Sung:<\/strong> Welcome to the MindShift podcast, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I\u2019m Ki Sung. There\u2019s been no shortage of stories about what\u2019s troubling kids today, the outbursts, the apathy, the mental health concerns. We\u2019re seeing some signs of progress through solutions like limiting screen time and having more in real-life social interactions, but there are still students who need help.<\/p>\n![\"\"](\"https:\/\/cdn.kqed.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/23\/2026\/05\/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg\")
<\/a>Ki Sung:<\/strong> Dr. Ross Greene developed the Collaborative and Proactive Solutions Model<\/a> to help all students, and it requires a different way of responding to students\u2019 behavior. He\u2019s the author of the recently published book, The Kids Who Aren\u2019t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools<\/a>.<\/p>\n